#58 - The Philosophy of Goals, Truth and Change - Ruben Chavez (Think Grow Prosper) Interview

Today's we are talking with Ruben Chavez  creator of Think Grow Prosper and the Think Grow Podcast (highly recommend listening to his podcast!)

Video Version

Podcast Version


Show Notes (easier to navigate on the YouTube video)

  • 01:04 on social media
  • 02:16 what is Ruben's podcast about
  • 05:28 what started Ruben's journey into philosophy?
  • 09:49 the philosophy of politics
  • 11:59 landscape of humans thoughts and ethics
  • 12:28 how to live in the world
  • 13:51 there are no new problems
  • 15:07 Jordan Peterson
  • 15:24 clean up your room
  • 16:51 Jordan Peterson as a psychometrician
  • 18:03 personality vs political beliefs
  • 18:46 the big 5 personality traits
  • 19:37 Jonathan Haidt
  • 20:52 there's wisdom in different political views
  • 22:33 on goals and desires
  • 23:52 on being a philosophical generalist
  • 24:37 big history & sapiens
  • 25:23 Jonathan Haidt - the righteous mind
  • 26:30 desires and the 2 two schools of thought
  • 27:05 Tao Te Ching (Dàodé jīng)
  • 28:08 Jim Rohn quote: “Learn to be thankful for what you already have, while you pursue all that you want.” —Jim Rohn
  • 28:24 flexibility in our goals to adapt
  • 30:04 how to deal with contradictions, two opposing views that both make sense. The answer there is in "balancing" both
  • 30:40 quote by Khe Hy @khemaridh "The paradox of goals: If you achieve them, you get bored. If you don't, you're unsatisfied. Ergo, you bounce between being bored and unsatisfied."
  • 32:22 chaos and order
  • 33:44 flow modern version of Wu wei "non-action"
  • 35:36 on truth
  • 35:47 Jordan Peterson vs Sam Harris conversation
  • 37:06 pragmatic view: what's true is what is useful
  • 37:11 Yuval Noah Harari: intersubjective reality
  • 39:04 religion as an intersubjective reality
  • 41:29 lobsters
  • 42:00 the laws of nature, vs human laws
  • 43:34 truth in fiction books
  • 45:01 different fields of study describing a mountain
  • 45:34 various sources of truth, different fields, different perspectives
  • 48:34 why do we call fiction fake?
  • 49:39 good stories are like statistics
  • 51:13 Harry Potter is relatable because we see ourselves in him
  • 52:56 parenting and teaching kids about scary emotions
  • 58:53 what does it mean to become an adult
  • 01:02:01 life stages and feeling like an adult
  • 01:04:48 parenthood is like programing
  • 01:05:44 does parenthood changes life philosophy?
  • 01:06:43 On having an obsessive personality
  • 01:08:19 how to deal with contradictions?
  • 01:09:16 the ability to change beliefs
  • 01:09:52 Quote: “This is how humans are: We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question.” ― Orson Scott Card
  • 01:11:03 A Theory of Everything Book by Ken Wilber
  • 01:13:45 things are in constant change
  • 01:14:58 on Ruben's book
  • 01:18:28 we trick ourselves to rationalize our beliefs
  • 01:22:41 the overlap across philosophies
  • 01:25:12 where to find more of Ruben's work


This is an automatically generated Transcript, which means it’s 95% accurate, so keep that in mind. But you can still use it to “control + f” find what you are looking for.

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what's up. How you doing, man? Nice emergence man. From the both of sorry, I'm still like plugging some [00:07:00] things. Don't, worry's a great way to gotta get my light lighting. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, of course. Nice painting, man, man, go that's in the back, you know, you know it's original. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

so, uh, Hey good, man. I love your mustache, dude. That's that's long that right there is mustache. Thank you, man. I've been training for the first time. This's been crazy. very cool. Hey, I'm gonna, um, record this, uh, on my, on I have audacity here, so I'm just gonna perfect. Yeah. So if you can just make that, just your audio, that would be ideal.

Yeah, you, yeah. That's what I, yeah. Is my screen looking. Okay. Um, yeah, actually let me just make sure, because I just want to have you on the frame, so actually let me hide myself. Yeah, that's perfect. It's all good on your side. Okay, cool. Let's see. I'll just confirm. Cool.

Sorry this, [00:08:00] uh, my computer did an update and so now I having trouble finding audacity, but ah, there it's. Okay, cool. Yeah, that happens. man, I've been running into so many technical issues. It's been like the whole day, but I just wanted to make sure everything's perfect. It's gonna look super cool though. I have like two cameras set up.

Everything's gonna be great. Oh. Oh, nice. So you can do, you're gonna post the video on, uh, you're gonna post the video on YouTube too. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking of doing that because I have a main channel where I'm doing more productivity stuff, but I really want that conversation with you to be more philosophy obviously, and well creativity and that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Uh, so yeah. Might actually start a second channel for like this kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But this is also going to the podcast that I have. I've been behind all my friends. And so you're, you're not, you're not unique in that and I apologize, but I, uh, behind in just kind of like knowing what everyone's up to and, um, kind of supporting all the channels and stuff.

So I gotta, you [00:09:00] gotta send me your, your links man. So I can, I can check it out. Cool, man. Yeah, no worries. No worries. I mean, this is gonna go to the podcast too, so that's gonna be awesome. Sorry. Hello? Hello? Can you hear me? Oh. Oh, you can't. You can't hear. Okay. Hang on. I'm I have you on mute. I think I muted you.

Oh really? Miss. I hear you. You can hear me though, right? Yeah. Okay. I can't hear you. No, let's see here. Let me check 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3. Okay. I can hear you. I can hear, but yeah. So as soon as I plug in my, um, my actual mic, it, the sound goes away. I don't know why that is. Oh, does, does your microphone maybe have like a headphone Jack?

Oh, you know what, dude? No, I don't have my microphone. Does that be perfect? I don't have my mic on, I don't think the mic on, hang on, lemme try this again. All [00:10:00] right. Oh, can you hear me now? Yes, I hear you, but I can't hear you still.

Okay. Does.

Should I plug in this thing into the headphones, Jack? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Try that, but,

oh, you can't hear me? Can you, I, I can hear you through my speaker, but not through. Oh yeah, no. Then is because some kind of silly setting here within, can you share your screen? Share my screen. Uh, how do I share my screen? Yeah. Sorry dude. I'm like, um, there's like a, the little square with the arrow because you're in audacity, right?

What's that? Yeah. You audacity, you said I'm using yes. I was using audacity to, uh, to record. I haven't even pressed record yet though. Um, but I have about [00:11:00] open. Ready to go. Yeah. Let me see if I can. Hmm. You know, what, can, can you hear me? Well, I think I can share my screen here. Is it? Can you see my screen?

Uh, not yet. Let's give a second. Huh? I said, sure, sure. You're that is weird. Oh, here you go.

Yeah. Yeah. I can see it now. Cool. Okay. So let, let me try to press it. So you have audacity and then you have, of course this tab open right here. Um, and when you plug the USB, you cannot hear me. That's that's yeah. This is a blue Yeti mic and just a USB. And I normally just plug right into the computer. Um, I don't ever work with Google, uh, this meeting.

I usually do zoom. Yeah. And it doesn't have any issues, but, so I don't know if there's some setting that I'm missing here on, on Google. Yeah. No, that's super strange. Okay. So show me of [00:12:00] dity for a sec. Sure.

Okay. Um, I don't know, maybe in the preferences I can. I mean, it's just kind of weird to understand why that would happen. Try, try it again. Let's see what happens. Okay. Just plugging it.

Okay. Plug it in. And I'm guessing I can't hear you more. And then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Can you hear me? Ah, that's for sure. Cause I see. Okay. I see you moving. I can plug it and I don't hear anything. Yeah. I see your be mustache four, five okay. Okay. Yeah, unplug it. Let me know when you can hear me.

Okay. I can't hear you now.

[00:13:00] Can you hear me? 1, 2, 3, 1 2, 3 1 2, 3. I can't hear you now.

I can't hear you, but I know you said damnit or something of the sort can't hear you. Can't hear you. Um, let's text. Okay. In here.[00:14:00]

2 3, 1 to


Did I have no idea what is happening? Oh, okay. Hold on. Yeah, I hear you hear you hear you. Yeah, I know. I don't have my microphone plugged in. I'm gonna try one more thing here. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yes, yes. Your microphone sounds way better. Yeah. Can you hear me? Microphone, speakers, speakers. I hear you. You hear me now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. There you go. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. I think we're good because it does sound better. Like, so it's definitely picking up from the, okay. Now it's picking up.

Yeah. Thank you, man. For going through that. I know the things are stressful. I feel like this the whole day. No worries. Nothing was working. It was crazy, man. Mercury maybe is in retrograde or something, you know, who knows? all right. All right. All good? Okay, so I'm recording. Let, just, I have a little checklist to make sure everything's good.

Okay. So I'm recording here in Google meet. So yeah, that should be fine. [00:16:00] I'm recording on this GoPro. That camera your audio. Let me just check that is that's picking up. Just count to 3, 1, 2, 3. Perfect. Just my audio. 1, 2, 3. I'm gonna great, man. And I'm gonna press record now on my, on my audacity. Yes, please.

So let me make sure that's recording. Okay, good. That looks good. Um, also, dude, I, I wanna ask two, two housekeeping things. One, I just got a, just yesterday. I, I, I sent out a message to my email list that I'm going to be taking on a few new, um, a few clients over the next couple months, uh, coaching clients and I set up.

Um, so anyway, long story short, I mm-hmm , I, I just got a notification, like 10 minutes before we got on the call that somebody set up a call with me at two o'clock, um, two o'clock, two hours for you introductory call. Yeah. And so I just, okay. You know, I just wanted to, I, I was ready to go like for three hours, but I, I messed up in my scheduling.

Um, And I, I, I, I put [00:17:00] it too close to this conversation, so anyway we have till yeah, whatever, maybe 1 45 or something like that. 1 45. Uh, let me just confirm what time is that for me? Just to make sure, uh, so 1 45. So yeah, that's three. That's like the latest. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Let's try not to push it, but, sorry.

Yeah, I was definitely gonna ask you. No worries, man. No worries. Still. We have plenty of time. I just, I was definitely gonna ask you if you had any, any commitments to keep an eye for. Uh, cool. Yeah, basically that would be exactly an hour and a half from, from here. I think so. Okay. Okay. Um, and you can hear my audio.

Okay. Yeah, everything's perfect, man. I'm just, okay, cool. I have, I have like two screens, but I don't have a watch. I mean, I do have this watch, but I just want to make sure that I . I want to like a timer, something. Let me see if I can have something I'll I'll have my phone just to, just to know. Yeah. Just to keep an eye on time.

Cool. Cool man. Great. Um, yeah, so no worries. 3 45, which is 1 45 for you. [00:18:00] So that leaves us with, yeah, like what is that like three hours when am and a half, one hour 30. Yep. Yeah, hour and a half. Cool man. Cool. And by the way, if anything happens, like, uh, you know, technical issues or anything like that, I can edit things out, so don't worry too much or, okay, cool.

You know, but for some reason I lose track of time. Do let me know. I can cut that out and then we can wrap it up. Sounds good. Great, cool, man. All right. I think we're all set. Oh, one more thing. One more thing. I forgot. Yeah. Tell me, tell me, tell me, can I, uh, would it be okay if I use this audio? Do I have the option to use this audio for my own?

Like, can I post it on my own podcast? Of course, man, that'd be awesome. Yeah, sure. Cool. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe bits of it or whatever, you know, depending on comes out. So yeah. Oh, appreciate that because yeah, I mean, I do plan to put this on YouTube and then maybe get clips up for different purposes. So yeah, no more than happy to, to give it to you.

If anything, that's really cool for me. So thank you. Okay, cool. Awesome man. Okay. [00:19:00] Anything else? Let let's just make sure I had a couple of things. So yeah, I was gonna ask you how much time you had, um, letting you know that we can edit it in case anything happens. Um, yeah. Recording everything. Definitely recording of dust in your side.

Yes, I am. Okay, cool. Can you make sure, like, it's just, it's just your microphone, right? It doesn't pick up my voice. Uh, let me see. Yep. It's just my microphone and I'm seeing it right now. Three, one to three, so, yep. Yep. It doesn't, it doesn't record your voice so perfect man. That's ideal. All right. Cool. All right, so we can get started.

Cool. I do have a couple questions, but uh, yeah. I mean also like the whole, conversation's gonna be pretty much, uh, you know, pretty casual for the most part. I do have a couple of questions, but nothing too street. So feel free to, if you go in tangent, just don't worry too much. Yeah, dude, it's been a while since we've caught up.

So I'm just congrats to be talking with you, you know, same man. Yeah, same. Cool. All right. You ready? Yes, sir. Okay. [00:20:00] I'll do the intro. All right. Hey, what's up? So here we have Ruben Chavez, the man himself and Ruben. Go ahead. Just introduce yourself for anyone that doesn't know you and yeah, just go ahead. Oh man.

Well, I'm uh, I'm Ruben. I, uh, I don't know what I would call myself, maybe a, a, a person development philosopher, maybe a, uh, coach, you know, hard, hard to describe, but I, you know, I'm out there doing my thing, so. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad to be here though. Ruben is super thanks, man. He has great having you and Ruben is super humbled because he has a huge podcast with tons of listeners and how many followers you have, like a lot, man, like it's crazy on, on Instagram.

That's your biggest question? Me. Yeah, that's, that's kind of where I started Instagram and um, you know, I don't, I honestly, I don't, I don't really, I think it's, it's over 2 million, but quite honestly, it, I stopped paying attention to that a long time ago, just because the, the numbers games get you depressed.

And also it kind [00:21:00] of dehumanizes the whole, the whole social media game. And, um, and for me it just wasn't productive to focus on, but, but I I'd much rather have a tighter group of people that were like paying super close attention than, you know, than a whole, whole bunch of people who, who kind of are lukewarm.

But yeah, it's, it's over a couple million followers, so I'm, I'm very grateful for, for everybody who, uh, you know, who finds any value, anything I write or. Man. I mean, it's, it's crazy because I, I am, I don't know when I discovered your podcast, but that was like right for me when I started getting into Stoy system and it was super valuable, man.

Like, I'll, I'll tell you a bit of a story later and how it connects certain things with what I'm doing now. But yeah, no first I just want to, I just want to share with the audience, like a bit of, what is your broadcast about for those that are not familiar? What are you doing there and how did it get started?

You know, stuff like that. Well, I wanted to, I, I, I began my online, uh, kind [00:22:00] of, I guess you could say, uh, content creating career at, uh, around 2014 when I was posting stuff on Instagram and it was just stuff for myself, you know, quotes that I wanted to remember insights that I, that I wanted to kind of internalize and, you know, it was really hard time in my life.

And I was like, I, I need to, I need to be reminded of these things that have helped me in the past. And so. Started doing that. And, and after a while, um, you know, it, people started really resonating with some of the things that I was posting, but I wanted to kind of expand after a couple years, I wanted to expand on some of the ideas and, and some of the concepts and go a little deeper.

And it was also around the time when I was just kind of just trying to develop my own philosophy and, and my own kind of framework for how to look at the world. And I thought that doing that in real time with guests, you know, kind of talking out loud and working through my, my own ideas would be a good, good, uh, platform for that.

And so, so yeah, that's, that's pretty much why I started the podcast. I really just wanted to get in [00:23:00] touch with what it is that I thought and, and work out in real time, my ideas. And so that's, that's what it became. I, I realized that I, that was a skill, that's actually a skill I realized it's not something that, like, I'm not a super, I'm not a super talkative person in my personal life.

Um, I don't, you know, I'm not like out there. You know, like if you just met me and you didn't know who I was online, uh, you would, you would not think I was, you know, um, posting motivational things or inspirational things or thought, or kind of insights or philosophical insights or anything like that.

You'd be like, oh, this guy kind of, you know, keeps himself he's pretty quiet. Um, you know, and I don't, don't really tell people how to live , you know, um, or even even offer them suggestions unless they ask me. So, so talking to people in real time, took a little bit to get used to. I was kind of, I was very nervous initially.

And so it wasn't initially, at least it wasn't the place where I could, where I initially [00:24:00] thought that I was like how I was going to be, where I was going to be able to work out my thoughts in real time and like come to these conclusions with people, you know? Um, it was more just me trying to be an interviewer and me trying to like , um, hold the conversation together.

Um, I, I mean, I tried very hard not to make it like an interview because I, I thought that that wasn't the right way to look at it, but I, I did try to just make a conversation and happen. And so anyway, I, once I built that skill, it started to become a little bit more, more natural and, and I started to be a little bit more, um, organic in my thinking.

And it was more along the lines of what I had envisioned originally. So, but that's kind of in a nutshell what led me to, to make the podcast. Yeah, man. I mean, that's, that's crazy because for you did it like the whole journey to philosophy and that kinda stuff like, did that get started because of something in particular?

Like, do you remember like one instance or was it more circumstantial from your life? You know, how did it all [00:25:00] started? Well, I think fatherhood really, really instigated the, the, the big, my, a big era in my life of philosophical inquiry, because like, When I began, I, I started reading personal development of books, like when I was 18 years old, uh, you know, I got contacted by a network marketer and I, I was in that world for a while and it was very cool.

It was very enriching for me. I was really young and I just, all these people who were doing business and they were like cheer each other on. And they were encouraging me to read these motivational and, and inspirational books and business books, you know, not, not just inspiration, but tactical books. So it was a new world for me.

And I was like just taking aback. And, and that was probably, that was actually my, my, my second exposure to the person development world. My first exposure was when I, when I, um, was in junior year of high school, I took a psychology class and in that psychology class, my teacher, Mr. Corer, Kevin corer, [00:26:00] still to this day, I think about him almost once a month.

And. He for a whole semester, he taught the books, the seven habits of highly effective people. That was the book that he taught. And I'd never heard of this. I had never heard of that book. I never knew about person development. You know, I was 16, 17 years old and, uh, I was blown away. Like he, he was a fantastic speaker, also Kevin corn.

He, you know, he was just a, a great teacher. He's won awards, you know, he's, he's phenomenal. And, and, you know, the, the worst kids, the, the, the kids who never paid attention in class and who were flunking, every other class would pay attention in his class. And it was so cool. And, and I was just in raptured by, by the principles and the idea that there was like a framework that you could apply to your life, that you could make improvements and this whole thing, you know?

Um, so, so that was my first exposure. And then that planted the seed. And then fast forward a couple years later, when I entered the kind of network marketing world, I was, I was, I was already [00:27:00] primed, you know, I was, I was ready to go. And, and so for years, I, I just, I kind of read personal development books on and off, you know what I mean?

Like, I, I, I eventually, you know, quit the network marketing that I was doing and, and, but it was a good experience and, um, and maybe drift away from books. But then I, I, I, you know, at times in my life I would, I would rediscover some of these books that had really resonated with me and, and, and helped me to, uh, overcome challenges or be a better communicator or, or whatever, you know?

And, and then I, I think the, the, the more so that was kind of the, the, that was my roots in, in terms of my, my intellectual, uh, pursuits, but, but I, I kind of always sensed that there was something there, there was more to it. There was something else that I was not really picking up on. And, and I always tried to connect the dots, but I didn't have.

The mental tools to do that. I didn't have the mental models. I didn't have the, uh, the education, frankly. And, and [00:28:00] so one of the, the, the, the big, um, I, I would say milestone events, my intellectual life at least was the, uh, 2016 presidential election in the United States, because what happened then I, I had already started thinker prosper in 2014, um, and just kind of posting some, some of these quotes that I was revisiting and right for myself.

And then, and I'd had some success and 2016 hit and in the us at least, uh, I mean, everything was crazy polarized, and it was, um, confusing to me because I started to think, like I had, I had friends on both sides of the friends and family on both sides of the, the political, um, aisle and the political spectrum.

And. I was trying to understand why people were disagreeing so much. And in my pursuit of trying to understand why people were disagreeing so much, I realized that [00:29:00] a lot of that has to do with, I mean, human nature and, and that intersects quite, quite squarely with personal development. And, um, I mean, politics and personal development are, are really just the same thing at different scales.

I think, you know, when you're developing yourself, like as an individual, you have different parts of yourself that you need to integrate. And then, you know, and, and, uh, uh, and then when you're developing a, a society, like you have different parts you integrate that are opposing that you need to cooperate, so you can create a peaceful society, you know?

And so I think that, um, That was kind of a rabbit hole for me, that, that kind of sent me down a path of like, trying to understand politics, but also how personal development and my knowledge structure fit into like politics. And, and, and then I realized like, well, politics is, is basically like an extension of the philosophical, um, branch of [00:30:00] ethics.

And because it, ethics is how do you live in the world? And what's the right action, you know? And so, so then I realized, well, yeah, if in order to make sense of politics, you have to know what, you know, what, um, what people have said, what the brightest thinkers, the, the world has produced, what they have said about, um, and what they have thought about what constitutes right.

Action. Uh, that's ex at least a good place to start. I figured, you know? Yeah. Uh, and so, so when I realized that I, I kind of, you know, I, I, I did my due, did my due diligence, you know, I did my best to, to, I took a lot of courses and lectures that covered a broad, the, the, kind of, the story of philosophy, like the, the history of, of philosophy.

I didn't, I didn't like study in depth, individual thinkers. [00:31:00] Um, partly because like, I didn't have time. Like, I'm a I'm, I'm like, I, I have to, I have a family, you know what I mean? Like I'm still have a business to run. Um, so I wanted to get the most bang for my buck and what I did was. Basically say to myself, okay.

I have to, I wanna figure out the, like, I wanna get acquainted with the landscape of thought, the landscape of human thought in regards to like ethics and, and, and kind of philosophical inquiry. What, what a human's thought since we've been recording ourselves thinking that was kind of my, my idea, because I didn't know, like, I didn't, I didn't realize like, I, I wasn't paying attention to what I think of as the great conversation.

And I've heard this different philosophers, different modern philosophers. Talk about it. Like this way. There's been a great conversation going on for millennia, really, since, since the Greeks and even before then, you know, and the conversation is about how to live in the world. [00:32:00] What is, what is the world?

What is reality? Um, how do we structure society? Like these are big, big questions that people have been talking about for ages, for ages. And when you realize that I, I, I, I finally concluded when, when you realize that you, and then when you start listening to these conversations and, and kind of going deep into these, uh, these thinkers who have contributed to, to human thought, then you enter the conversation and you're part of that conversation, you know?

Right. And then, and, and especially when you start writing about it and then sharing your thoughts, you know, but, but you still be part of that conversation if, if you at least understand the history of thought and, and, and that's important, not because not because you should just know what people think, although that's interesting, but it's because.

It's because there's no new issues like everything we're dealing with in society right now, this is another kind of [00:33:00] insight that I, that I kind of had epiphany that I had, I suppose, that that may be obvious to the season philosopher, but it wasn't to me, but it's that every, in every issue that we are dealing with, every problem that we have, every, every contentious thing that we talk about as a society and even, you know, at different scales as a society, but also in our families and also on the individual level, it has all been dealt with before in different ways.

It's just, there are different manifestations of the same problems that we've been dealing with for ages. So there's no new problems and looking at philosophy and studying philosophy, um, will help you realize that and help you grapple with the different components. It makes sense of the different components of the problem.

So you can kind of come to your own conclusions. That's how I see it. Yeah, man. I mean, that's incredible. Like I like this thing that you say about there's no new problems, right? Like, and that's, that's really what got me personally into ancient philosophy as particularly. So system for me was very interesting to see these, these people that lived [00:34:00] thousand thousands of years ago with life being so different, but is still kind of dealing with the same, uh, core principles that affect us as humans.

Right. And that just Forens time, like there seems to be something fundamental about just being a human and learning, how to deal with your own emotions and your own problems and so forth. And you also talked about this idea of how the political meets the, the philosophical or rather the individual.

Right. And I like that a lot because for a long time, for me, I was really distant, distant from politics, not wanting to get involved in that. And someone that kind of helped me understand that a bit better. And you're probably a big fan of him, but Jordan Peterson. Yes. You know, like he, he's been a huge, a huge, um, influence in my life, especially recently.

I mean, I just go in waves of Jordan Peterson right now. I've just spent most of my days listening to him. And it's just incredible, you know, and I think you, you really pointed out something that he says all the time, which is kind of like clean up your room, you know, like solve yourself before you try to solve others.

Yeah. Well, I, I was [00:35:00] trying to do that. I, I was, I was trying to, um, I was trying to sort out my thoughts. I was trying to understand things from kind of a first principal's perspective. Um, yeah, I guess Jordan Peterson helped me to understand the, the, how, I guess one of the main things you have me understand, at least in the political sphere was how and why.

Um, a diversity of perspectives and political temperaments are. Useful and not just useful but necessary. Um, I didn't understand that he also, he also helped me understand the distinction between, um, different political perspectives through the lens of personality, because that, that for me was very, very useful.

Um, like I didn't connect, like I could, I intuited, like I intuited it. I, I, I suppose on some [00:36:00] level, but I didn't understand how, I mean, he's a personality psychologist that that's his, that's actually his, his field, you know? And so, um, like he's a psycho attrition, I think. And, and so he looks at the data of, of, you know, different personality traits and what they, uh, and the implications that it has in different spheres.

And so obviously, like he does, you know, he's, he's foray into many different fields since then, but that's, that's his original training, I think. And so, um, I thought that was very useful, like connecting the idea that like people have, like, first of all, learning about the, the big five framework, for example, like the, the, the personality traits that kind of constitute every individual in different degrees, I guess, the big five.

And he introduced me to that in, in a very, in a very, um, real way. That's that's that was so useful for me, because then I realized, okay, so higher people who are very high in, in openness, for [00:37:00] example, right. Like to have new experiences, they like to break things apart and, and, and, you know, to see how they work.

They like to, um, uh, they have a higher tolerance for uncertainty and, um, and for, and for things that are different for, they have to higher tolerance for the unknown, you know, that kind of a thing, um, people who are. Yeah. And, and so though that personality trait. is, is very, very highly, uh, correlates to people who are, uh, who identify as liberals, you know, um, right.

And in the west, you know, in, in, in America, in particular, we call 'em liberal mm-hmm Democrats. Um, and so that's really interesting. And then on the flip side, you have people who are more interested in order and conscientiousness and, um, the, the, the, the trait there is conscientiousness, you know, that's another, that's another big five trait it's conscientiousness, and, and that kind of has [00:38:00] these subcategories, but, but essentially, you know, you're more interested in order.

You're more interested in, um, in, um, kind of hierarchy and, and making sure things go a certain way, and you have less tolerance for unknown things. Um, There's a lot of different I'm, I'm glossing over a lot of detail here, but there's a lot of different, different traits that, that different sub traits that make up these kind of broad categories of traits.

Mm-hmm but the idea for me was like, okay, so I, well, and then I realized through people like Jonathan height, for example, cause he really, Jonathan had, I would say was probably my top intellectual hero. Um, he, he helped me underst he helped me put this all together in, in, in a more cohesive kind of, uh, he helped me tie these traits to more, um, like morality in a, in a more explicit way.

But yeah, I would say that for me, that was really useful because then I realized, okay, well, I learned that personality is BI is, is at least 50% biological. Like there's a huge biological component personality. [00:39:00] So that's very interesting because that throws a mention the whole political thing, because then we're, we're not just talking about arbitrary ideas that people have.

We're talking about how people are, we're talking about how people are on a very, in their core, right? Yeah. Yeah. These aren't just these, aren't just ideological differences, although there's a part of that, these right. There's definitely part of mm-hmm so it's like, okay, what do you do about that? And, and why do we have these temperamental differences?

And then that, that led me to evolutionary psychology, which, which, which Jonathan height has, um, helped me understand more. Um, also it it's like, well, maybe it's the case that these different temperaments, the, these different personality traits evolved. Throughout our, over the course of our evolutionary history in order to help us to deal with different social and environmental problems, challenges that we faced, you know?

And so maybe they're useful. This doesn't mean that everybody is, is automatically right in their [00:40:00] opinion. Um, it just means that there is a, or, or in their political viewpoint, for example, but it does mean that, um, there's a credible case for Al for, for most perspectives there, there, there, you know, someone, an individual could be entirely wrong, but an individual is part of a larger, you know, group.

And that group, let's say, you know, his, his political leaning, you know, and that, that group sh has wisdom in it. Like the right has wisdom in it. The left has wisdom in it. Um, that wisdom becomes distorted. In certain ways, because of, because there's corrupt, there's, there's a corruptive element to everything, you know?

And so things get things, get distorted. People, people have ulterior motives, all that, but there's, I always try to think of like, okay, where is this view coming from? What need is this view trying? Is this is this [00:41:00] seemingly like wacky view, trying to meet, for example, you know, is it a security need? Is it a need for change?

You know, there's these fundamental needs that, that we're all trying to meet, uh, because they're part of our personality. And if we can think in those terms, I found that we can have a little bit more moral imagination, uh, and, and compassion for people who maybe think differently than us. So, so personality was a really big, uh, understanding personality and, and, and, and personality differences was a big deal for me.

And I would say Jordan Peterson helped me to understand that. Awesome man. Yeah. I mean, you brought up kind of like these needs that people have kind of at their core, depending on, like you were saying, there's tons of factors, right. The biology and how, how your genetics change the way that you perceive the world.

Right. And how you behave in it. But there's also like, you know, and that, that really ties with like, learning to distinguish between what we do control and what we don't control, which is a topic that I think applies to almost [00:42:00] everything. Um, but how do you think this relates to kind of like the individual, uh, desire for, for not just material things, but rather accomplishment and goals, you know, that's, that's definitely something that's been in my mind a lot and we briefly mentioned it the other day.

Um, that is something I wanted to, to talk to you because that's something I've struggled a lot with, you know, how do you deal as an individual, as someone that is very thoughtful about how to live your life regarding, uh, desires and goals? How do I think about them? Yeah. How do you approach that?

Well, So, I guess after I, I, um, I'll just give you just a quick background on, on kind of where I'm coming from here before, before I answer that. But I, the, like, after I discovered some of these, these things like Jonathan height, uh, like Jordan Peterson, like, like, um, YV all know a Harari, he he's a big influence on me too.

I, um, and, and many others, but I, [00:43:00] I started to kind of put things together. I, I, I like to , I, I think about things in a very big picture way. Like if, if, if we, if we had a conversation about like Nietzche philosophy, I, I, I would not be a very good conversationalist because I, I think about where he fits into the big picture of philosophy.

Okay. And, and where ideas fit into this bigger framework? I, I, I'm not like a specialist. I, I am a generalist when it comes to kind of philosophical yeah. The thingy philosophical. Cause I'm trying to make sense of a lot of things at once. Um, right, right, right. And so I, maybe later on I'll be a, I'll be a specialist, um, and a generalist.

But anyway, what I would, I, I guess, um, to answer your question, I, um, I started to kind of develop my own way of looking at things, my own lens, my own framework, like from, from all these different thinkers, who, who, who were very big thinkers, who thought about things in a very broad, broad way. Like one of my favorite disciplines is big history.

Like, have you, have you taken the big history course from David Christian? No, I haven't. It's like 50 hours of, [00:44:00] um, of lectures, but it, it it's, it's like the entire universe. It's basically an extended version of sapiens. Have you read sapiens? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, not, not in full, but yeah, I'm aware. Okay.

So SAP is one of my favorite books. Um, and, and really that that's a big history. Basically he's taken the history of humanity and he's, and he is kind of turning it into a narrative, you know, turning into a story that you can read in four or 500 pages, um, which is a huge feat for the history of humanity.

Uh, so anyway, those are the type of fingers I'm really attracted to the, the, the people who, who think over long periods of time and who try to make sense of a lot of information. Um, so I started to develop my own way of, of doing this. And, um, yeah, I, I kind of came up with, with this, with this framework, um, that, um, Of kind of, I, I, I guess, different these different dimensions of human experience, they could be different dimensions.

They could be cons construed as values. They could be construed as needs. Um, but anyway, there's these kind of [00:45:00] sets of needs that, that always oppose each other. Like we have these different Jonathan height kind of talks about this in his book. Uh, the righteous mind, you know, he talks about like, we have, we have different, we all have different, um, moral intuitions about like, what's right.

And, um, I, I just realized that a lot of fingers haven't placed an emphasis on the idea that a lot of these intuitions, they actually are. They're more, they're more patterned than we think in the sense that not only do we have different intuitions about what's right, and about what to value, but we all they're, they also oppose each other.

We have conflicting ones and that's a real issue. Like, for example, in, in, in the, in the, with the question. Like goal and desire. Yeah. And desires. Yeah. That kind of manifests as you know, these, these opposing views kind of manifest, um, as two different schools of thought when it comes to how to navigate, you know, kind of your [00:46:00] life, how, how, how to, how to, how to, um, handle desire, I suppose.

And one of 'em right. Is, is very Western in nature. And, and the Western approach is like, go after what you want and like have a goal and charge forth and achieve it, you know, like, right. Um, regardless of what people say, like you are an individual, you can do it, you know, and, and obviously like, that's very powerful.

Um, the other, the, the opposing, uh, side, the opposing school of thought there would be like very Eastern in origin and it's, it's something like, you know, go with the flow of life, like. Accept what comes, this is like the, the Dowing, you know, the Dowing isn't telling you to set goals, you know what I mean?

Like it's saying, like, be like water, go with the flow and, and, um, practice acceptance, you know? Yeah. Um, that that's the Buddhist way too, in many ways. And then it alsot has an element of that too. [00:47:00] It's like, uh, I'm more fat, you know, mm-hmm um, this kind of acceptance of what is. And those are a bit at odds with each other as, as you can tell, you know, it's like, wait, so along with that is, is kinda like the, this idea of gratitude, like be grateful for what you have, you know, and just kind of like be don't do be, you know, and that's kind of the split it's like doing and being kind of, and it's like, which, which one is right.

And the reality is I, I think we need both, like, I think it's, it's obvious when you step back that, that, that we both in some way, um, we, we, and, you know, different people have articulated this in different ways. I think Jim Rome was like, be, be grateful for who you have while you pursue all that you want, you know, this kind of a thing, but that's United these two different, these two different schools of thought.

Um, so we need to have goals. We, we need to have the flexibility to, um, ex to kind of move with the flow of life, you know, and to change our direction and maybe even change our goal [00:48:00] itself because we don't know what life is gonna throw at us, and we need to be equipped to, to do that. And so I think that's how there's always this balance point between these opposing schools of philosophy is opposing schools of thought.

And I think that's the kind of the balance point there, you know, like I've, I've in the past, I have like set goals and been very rigid about I'm going to achieve this goal, and this is the one I'm going, and this is what I want. And I know this is what I want, and then I'm gonna get it. And the problem with that is that your, like, at least with me sometimes what you want changes.

Um, and, and also sometimes there's a better path that leads to somewhere else that you might not have even realized you wanted. And so. That's just one issue of, of many with, with that. And so that's why there needs to be another strategy. You know, I, I think of these in some sense, as strategies, like different strategies for navigating the complexity of reality, and we need different strategies, we need the, you know, we need, [00:49:00] we need, as soon as you spouse one particular advice, one particular strategy, I've, I've noticed that you can, you can kind of look at it from an opposing side and the exact opposite could also be appropriate in certain cases.

And so I'm always thinking in these terms, I'm always thinking in terms of like, okay, that's good advice, but also what's the opposite of that. And how might that be useful too? And it turns out that's almost always, it's almost always the case that you can come up with with an opposing, um, argument. And then you're left with.

Which one do I follow? And, and the answer is almost, almost always like, well, it's some combination of the two, it's some balance point, whenever there's two conflicting philosophies and they both kind of make sense in some sense, then it's your job to, to apply, to like integrate the two or apply them in different to different situations as is needed, basically.

Wow, man. Yeah. That's crazy. I mean, the, the whole thing about the balancing thing, I think [00:50:00] that's perhaps that's wisdom, right? Like perhaps wisdom is knowing when to play what concept, uh, depending on, on the given situation. Like, you know, the, I, I wanted to share this with you, but there's a, there's a creator.

I follow called K hi, sorry if I butcher that, uh, either way he tweeted this right before we started and I was like, wow, that's perfect. Because that relates really to the idea of goals and how to approach it. Right. And he says, the paradox of goals is that if you achieve them, you get bored. If you don't, you're unsatisfied.

Therefore you bounce between being bored and unsatisfied. So what do you do with that? You know? Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I mean, this kind of goes back to what I think is one of our fundamental core human needs or, or you could think of as core kind of values that we all, that we all have, and that are enough opposition to each other.

And those are the need for, I [00:51:00] call it kind of novelty, which would be like achieving goals and, and new newness, you know, like, like trying to novel, achieve something novelty. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and security, which is. Like novel would be on the path, you know, like on, on the adventure. And then security would be like the achievement, you know, the actual achievement.

And, and then like, you know, think of having us having, like you achieve your goal. And now you're like, let's say financially secure, or you are like, you have your, you have more status now. And then like, as we know, humans adapt very quickly, you know? And so we have this, this, uh, you know, this, what was once a, a very novel achievement now becomes our baseline, our new normal.

And so that's always at play though. Dude, if you just think of, you can just think of the political landscape too. You can imagine how those two values are always kind of intention with each other. It's like this, this need for the new, this need to update our, our, [00:52:00] our systems, our lives, our rituals, our habits, our traditions, our customs, our norms, this need to update all that because we need to make it new.

But also this need to have some stability. Have some security so that we don't just like evolve into chaos, so, right. Yeah. That's, that's the whole game right there. You know, it's at least it's a big part of the game. Definitely. Definitely like, uh, Jordan Peterson talks about how well he talks a lot about chaos and order.

That's his, his book, what, particularly the first book, pretty much about like finding the order in KU. And he talks about this idea of like, um, you know, the, the psyche of the individual is kinda like, always finding that middle point between having less in, in his words, kind of like having one foot set on KU and one foot in order, or rather like, like you say, to put in your words, security versus achievement, right?

Like having like one foot in comfort in the things, you know, and then having [00:53:00] another food in the unknown. And whenever you can have that, that's kind of like, you know, flow or please. And that's kind of like a, an ultimate state of, of being, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it flow is like the, the modern version of, um, of, uh woowee I think I'm saying that right.

Woowee is a woowee yeah, yeah. Is a, uh, yeah, it's a Dallas concept of like, kind of being like, you know, it's like no mind, you know, and this like action without action. It's like effortless action. Yeah, no action. Yeah. And, and it's this idea that like, once you're like, I, I think once you are, I think a bit of a number of different ways, you know, but like when, when you are kind of integrating these different elements in a way, and, and you're, and you've practiced that so much, you are, you can do it almost effortlessly.

You can do it almost without thinking. And, you know, athletes get into that state [00:54:00] and, and different people who practice their craft law, get into that state. Um, but. I think we can, we can be, you can even do that on a more mundane, basic level every day. If, if, if we're always aware of the kind of opposing forces that, that, that, that are at play, you know, in, in, in all of our moral decisions, in all of our, um, our even personal decisions, you know, cause morality is not just like, you know, about sex and like, you know, killing people.

It's like morality is how to act and that bleeds into virtually every area of our life. So, yeah, man, that's crazy. You know, like I, I also wanted to ask about, um, just the concept of even like truth, because I think that relates a lot to what you were saying previously about like, you know, there's, there's certain sites in the political spectrum in all types of thinking about how to be a good human in society.

And I want to know, well first, you know, to [00:55:00] kind of like. Transition into this topic, which I think is pretty expensive, but how would, how would you describe truth? Hmm. I, I loved the, I I've listened to the conversation on truth that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris had, uh, I mean the infamous, the infamous conversation before I've listened to that, probably like 10 times maybe really that conversation.

Yeah. It's just, it's just so good. But both of them, because there was a follow up, there was an initial one and then there was a follow up, um, right years ago and it was really insightful. It was really helpful for me. Um, because, because I mean, it's been, it's been a while since I've listened to it, but fundamentally like Sam Harris thinks that there is an objective truth.

Um, whether we know it or not, And Jordan Peterson is more [00:56:00] along the lines of, well, maybe, but it's kind of irrelevant because truth is what, um, truth is more pragmatic than that, you know, truth like is what allows us to exist essentially. Right. Um, if there's no, if there's, you know, if, if we're not, if, if we don't survive it wasn't true enough, essentially.

And, and, and that's a pragmatist idea, you know, the, the pragmatist, uh, philosophers thought along those same lines, you know, it's like, what's true is what is what's useful. What's true is what's useful, essentially. Um, and, um, again, I think there's a, there's a, there's a combination of both. You've all know Harari helped me to understand this a bit also, because I think of, he kind of helped me understand that there's three kind of.

Levels of, of reality. There's, there's three kind of dimensions of truth, I guess [00:57:00] you could think about there's the objective truth, right? Which, which may be, which may exist regardless of, of what we think you can think of like, um, radio activity or, or something just very mm-hmm scientific, you know, um, then there is, um, subjective truth, subjective reality, which is, you know, our thoughts and feelings.

Um, and those have a very real element to them also that, that that's a reality. It's, it's a different reality though, than, than neutrons and electrons. You know, your subjective reality is a different reality than neutrons and electrons than an objective reality, but it's still a reality. And then you have intersubjective reality.

Okay. And intersubjective reality, it is, is. Kind of, or the two meat in, in a sense, it it's, it's the truth that we make by interacting with each other. And it's the truth that we create essentially like money, [00:58:00] like money, you know, doesn't have any intrinsic value. Um, it's a piece of paper. Um, the, the construct of, of, of money, it is just that it's a construct.

It doesn't exist objectively in, in nature. Um, but we, you know, we're all like if, if, if you come across a million dollars, like there's a very real element to that because we have imbued money with meaning. And if everybody stopped believing in money, like it would become meaningless. But because we all believe it inter subjectively, it, it, it becomes true.

So, so it's kind of like group level belief. So religion is another one of these, well, at least in you've all know a Hari's, um, Conception of, of religion. Um, it, it, it's another, uh, you know, he, he talks about it as, as, as, as myths that, that we create that, um, maybe have some utility, you know, just like money has some utility in the world.

Um, it's not, it's not objectively true. And, and he would say the same thing [00:59:00] about, about, about religion. Um, so the, the, this idea of intersubjective true, uh, reality or, or truth, cuz reality and truth are, I would say very similar intersubjective reality, subjective reality, and objective reality is, is, is a very cool way to think about it.

Um, I think that there are different, there are different manifestations of, of truth and that's kind of the broad conception of, of what I think. Um, I don't know. Yeah. I actually haven't heard about this idea of intersubjective. It is really interesting. It, yeah, it makes, it makes sense. Like when you said money, that was like, oh, okay.

That's the perfect example. Right. Because it is not obvious that money is valuable until we all agree upon it, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's it's and I mean, most of the things that we value are and think are extremely important, most of them are [01:00:00] intersubjective truths. Um, really I think, yeah, I think, I mean, morality in a sense is intersubject is an intersubjective truth because, or an interest subjective reality.

Right. Right. I mean, partly because, I mean, it depends on, on your conception of morality, but like, you know, if you are like, if you look at nature, if you just watch a discovery channel, um, like the morality, at least in the way that we conceptualize. Doesn't exist. It's more complicated. And, you know, Jordan Peterson lays us out because obviously our morality had to come from somewhere.

And so it has like there's biological roots because, you know, you can observe like hierarchies within a Wolf pack. Yeah. You can observe chimpanzees, you know, doing certain things that, that, that, that we, that we would deem, you know, like, uh, you know, moral it, you know, fall into the moral domain. [01:01:00] Um, Lobsters lobsters.

Right, right. Lobsters. And so there's obviously there's an objective reality, but, but no one would, would, would say that, you know, lobsters or, um, or wolves are thinking of morality in the same way that we do. And so we've, we've conceptualized it. We've, we've, um, articulated it and organized it in a much more, um, precise manner, you know, through laws and, and, and all that.

But right. But, um, but that's an inter subjective reality there. What we did there is we created laws. Like there's no laws in nature, you know what I mean? Um, and so apart from the physical laws, yeah, yeah, yeah. The laws of nature right, right. The laws, exactly. The laws of nature are right. Um, the laws of the universe, you know?

Um, yeah, but it's not like you can't there's no, there's no like you can't, um, You know, like have sex with, you know, you, you, um, head Wolf can't have sex [01:02:00] with this Wolf. It's like, you know, it's not like that. Um, and so we make a lot of, a lot of laws and, and rules. There there's value in, in a lot of that, you know, but again, it, it's, it's kind of a, there's a constructionist element to that.

Um, and this intersubjective element to that that we all have to agree upon is, is useful. And so there are many more examples of this, but, but that's kind of how I broadly conceive of the different domains of, of truth. I, I guess, um, and like, I mean, there's a lot to say about this man, obviously like Sam Harrison and Jordan Peterson have had like hours and hours of convers of discussion about this.

Um, and. A million times more intelligent than, than I am. But, um, but that's kind of the, the basis of, of, of how I think about it. I, I mean, I'm, I'm someone who finds a lot of value. Like truth can be stated in a lot of different ways. I think like, yeah. You know, [01:03:00] and Peterson talks about this also, like you can, you can read a, you can read a book and a really good book and like a classic work of, of literature and, and go, wow, like there are elements, maybe it's a, a fiction book.

Maybe it's a fictitious book, you know? And, but you can go, wow, like. This is, this is true. Like, this is how life works. You know, I read east of Eden, right. Um, a couple years ago and it was just like a, just a fantastic, fantastic book and a, it, it it's, it's sprawling. It's like it's biblical in nature. It's I mean, in the terms of how big its scope is, you know, deals with different elements of human nature, love, loss, everything, you know, but there are elements and there are so true in there.

Um, but it's a fictional book. So what is that like? What is that? And, and, and then, and then you look at like maybe a, um, and then you go move over to the domain of science and [01:04:00] you read, you know, Steven Hawkings, uh, brief history of time. And that's not a fiction book that he's talking about physical things in the universe, but that's also true.

And so it's like, okay, what, what do we do with that? Um, one of the things that I think about is, is that the idea that there are different ways of stating the truth, um, and different views of, of the same thing, different. Like if you, if we're all looking at a mountain, right. Like metaphorically and there's artists, you know, at the base of the mountain, there's scientists, there's musicians, there's philosophers, we're all looking at a mountain.

We're all trying to describe this mountain. We're all going to describe it differently. You know, and, and maybe we paint them out. Maybe we draw it, you know, maybe some people draw it. Maybe some people describe it in words, but we're all describing the same thing. We're just doing it from different perspectives.

And I always think that's very, very useful. Like I'm someone [01:05:00] who I'll listen to like a, a, like in the same day, I'll listen to like a, a channeled, um, being, you know, like the, the, the, these kind of, uh, people who like say that they can channel like people from other dimensions. I dunno if you've ever mediums.

Yeah, yeah. Medium. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, I'll listen to someone like that. Like, you know, there's a, this guy called be, uh, this entity called Behar. Who's channeled to Dar Darrell ANCA. Like I'll, I'll listen to that. um, I'll read like, um, you know, a course in miracles, um, I'll listen to Maryanne Williamson, like these spiritual teachers, you know, that are, that are a little bit more like, you know, considered woo woo.

Potentially. Yeah. But in the same day, I will find immense value in, um, Whatever reading a, a paper in a journal or, or, um, you know, learning about, um, evolutionary biology or whatever, and like, I it's it's so I take, I [01:06:00] I'm very open to different sources of information. I, I I'm, I'm not, I'm not closed off of something.

I, I value about myself a lot and something I think is a really good trait is that I I'm not closed off to, to anything. Um, I mean, I, I guess I'll qualify that I obviously, like, I, I, I can't be, I'm not open to every single thing. Like, um, I think like the flat earth stuff is a little ridiculous. Um, like at some, everybody has their limits, you know what I mean?

Right, right, right. But, but what I mean is that. I'm not going to dismiss a source just because it's not, uh, it doesn't come from a credentialed background or because it doesn't have a PhD or because you know what I mean? There, there are different, there are different ways to describe reality. Reality is really complex.

Um, I think science has a, uh, is, has been obviously extremely powerful and useful for [01:07:00] us. Um, we owe much of our comfort to, to science and the scientific method. Um, but as with anything, like if it can become. Destructive. If we start to believe that that's the only way of explaining anything in the world, um, we have to, we have different ways of knowing things, you know, what's the place of the mystic, uh, you know, I go, otherwise, what's the place of the, of the, of the, um, the philosopher, the, the artist, you know what I mean?

The artist artists in science, but there's something there like, well, what are they capturing? Why do we care about art? You know, they're capturing something that's meaningful, that's truthful. And so we have to be open to these different channels of truth, these different, these different levels of, of reality.

Right man. And ways of making sense of the world, I would say. Right, right, right. Making sense of our reality and the world believe in, right. You said something about like, ah, this ed so much, man, you said something [01:08:00] about like, how can we say that something that is fiction or that is a story that is technically made up.

Isn't real, you know, because, well, in, in 12 rules, 12 rules for life, Jordan talks about, um, kind of like a kid imitating his father, you know, like he, he enters the room, he takes a seat on the sofa, he grabs a beer or whatever, or he shout like something or says something and maybe his father never did those things in that order.

But the kid of served his father and he interpreted what he thinks his father is like and made kind of a fiction out of it. Right. But. Why isn't that true? You know, it feels like a true interpretation. So in that sense, um, fictitious stories, you know, films, or, you know, boobs or anything that feels made at feels made up, it's kind of a summer, like a way to summarize and yeah.

I don't know, digest a certain reality, you know, that's right. That's right. It's a summary. And actually, yeah, [01:09:00] I I've I've I've thought that

good books and good fiction, good stories are actually, um, kind of like statistics. They're kind of like data and, and the reason is because. A good story, a very, a very, a very deep, um, and, and, and complex and rich, um, piece of literature. What it does is, is it extracts the most truthful elements from the human experience and it distills them, it, it, it, it, it, you know, it, um, kind of leaves what's not relevant.

And it distills the most useful aspects of human nature, the most, the most truthful aspects of human nature. Yeah. And of reality. And it puts them into a story like you don't read a story and, and, and read about like the boring, the boring parts of a person's life. It it's all relevant [01:10:00] to the story that that's why it's in the story.

And so when we read that, we're, we're, we're reading a summary, a distillation of mm-hmm of a large dataset of, of, of, of let's say human nature and. We're receiving just the, the essence of it and what's true about it. And so in statistics and in da, like if, if you look at like a, uh, you know, some table or graph, you are not looking at, oh, well, let me go back to the stories, for example.

So the, the story, isn't the story of one individual person like that we know, like, it could be a story of a fictitious person, but it's not the story of one individual. Like, like. You know, uh, Harry Potter or, or, or Hamlin. Yeah. You know, it's like Harry Potter, isn't real, but there's elements of him that we can all relate to.

there's elements of him that we can all I know. I mean, I, it hurt me too, Santa Claus, too, [01:11:00] man. What, um, what right. But there's elements that we all can relate to because they, because the JK rolling there's stilled a whole bunch of different elements of human nature and pack them into one character. And so, yeah, so it's, you know, it's kind like, like an archetype in that sense, it could be because it's very relatable on a deep level, but the reason why it's connected to statistics, um, and more like, kind of hard data is because when you look at like, like statistics, you're not looking at an individual person, you're looking at a whole data set.

That's distilled. , you know what I mean? And so it's not like the story of, of like one individual, because you can't make sense of the world through the story of only one person, um, because everyone has different experiences. So what so what the data does and the reason why data is useful and statistics are useful is they calculate and they look at, um, the experience of many different people.

I mean, let's just say we're talking about sociological data or whatever. [01:12:00] It's like, if you look at the experience of many different people, and then we are quantifying that in a way that we can understand through numbers. And it's like, it's the distilled essence of what's true across a wide range of data sets.

And that's basically what good authors do. The, the, the distillation of what's true across, across a wide range of data sets, you know? And in that sense, it's like very, very true, you know, right, man. And I want to ask you these as someone that you know, well, you're a father, right? I'm not a father and I've always wondered what.

What should we, well, how do I phrase this? You know, like when a kid, when a kid sees something right. In a film, in a movie that impacts them, maybe scares them at time. It, it creates some type of reaction, you know, I've heard, or I think kind of like the natural approach from, from a father would be, or a parent in general would be to tell them like, Hey, that's not real.

Right. So I don't know. You might have something about [01:13:00] this that I don't know. But what, what do you think of that? Um, well, the way we deal with it practically, um, if he scares something is to

we're, we're, we're very like, um, oriented toward, uh, more, I dunno if this is a, a real term or a term I just made up, but we're kind of like, um,

I think it's respectful parenting, I think is what it's called. And that, that, that sounds very like, kind of like whole than now, but it's, I think it's a school of thought that it's, it's more like giving kids autonomy and kind of validating their feelings more and, and, and, um, and making sure that we know, like we acknowledge what they're, what they're feeling, you know, rather than like, like kind of like trying to get them not to be scared, um, or saying, oh, it's fine.

Like kind of like meeting them where [01:14:00] they are. And so what I do, um, what we do, my wife and I do with, with our child is, um, our son, he's three, you know, he's scared of something and we, we handle it, my wife and I handle it a, a bit differently actually, but we're, we're, we're temperamentally quite different.

My wife and I, and so, but the, the general way we do it is, is like, if you're scared of something, we'll say, um, He'll run to us or, you know, show us that he's, he's scared and, and we'll say, Hey, that is scary. Isn't it? You got a little scared there. Okay. Okay. We'll hold him or whatever he needs us to do. You know?

And, um, my wife is, is more, is more inclined to let him stay as long as he wants in her arms or, or whatever, and, and completely, and, and, and, and basically, regardless of what situation we're in, if we have to go have somewhere to be, or if we have have a meeting or whatever, it's like, [01:15:00] he's not ready to go, you know?

And, and he needs to be, he needs to feel secure. Um, and I definitely do that. Like, you know, there's no, I approach it like that to a degree, cuz he needs to feel secure. He needs to have the sense of security that he has protection. Um, but I tend to. Do the, um, a little sooner than my wife, what I tend to do is try to, um, get him to go back out there, go, go face the thing again.

Um, like whether it's maybe like what something that's that happens a lot is, um, recently that has been happening recently is like, he's been scared of crowds and crowds of people. And so I'll be like, Hey, I, nobody, you know, it's, it's scary. There's a lot of people there. Um, he's a pandemic baby, you know, like most of his life has been, you know, locked up, uh, in that's crazy inside, you know, crazy, you know, he was born in February of, of nine, you know, 2019.

So anyway, um, the, the, [01:16:00] uh, What was I gonna say? Oh yeah. And so I'll, I'll try much more quickly than my wife to try to expose him to the thing again, you know, try to get him out there. Um, even just a little bit, even just a tiny bit, be like, Hey, um, I know that's scary. Like that sucks, like acknowledging the reality and kind of validating the reality of what he's scared about.

Cuz you know, like if we're honest with ourselves, a lot of the things that kids are scared about a we've been scared about them before or B we're. We're still scared about them in some ways. It just, we, we intellectualize it or we're more sophisticated about what we're, you know, about expressing that fear.

Like he's scared of crowds. A lot of us have social anxiety and a lot of us are like, you know, , don't wanna, don't wanna talk with people for one reason or another. Um, so he can art. He he's articulating all of that, although he's very articulate for a three year old, but he's not saying [01:17:00] like, oh, you know, I'm just afraid that, um, I I'm, I'm not going to be accepted by everyone or, Hey, I don't know these people or whatever.

It it's more like, Hey, there's something here. I don't what it is. So I, I try to basically steal man him. It's like, okay, you're scared of this thing. I get it like that. I, I see the aspect of it that you're scared about. Um, and I got you. I'm gonna keep you safe, but also G. Get back on the bike. And we've been, we've been riding a bike lately too, also, you know, so I'll be like, you know, he'll be like, ah, I fell off like, okay, I got you buddy.

Like, I know that that hurt here, go and he'll get back on the bike. And so just repetitions of that, really help to, um, give him the confidence that he's, um, the, a he has protection. He has a secure base that he needs, um, which is his parents. And then B it's like he has the, um, confidence in himself that he can also face the thing that he's afraid of.

And, and, um, it's real, but he can, he can face the thing that he's afraid of. [01:18:00] Nice, man. Wow. So you, you mentioned, um, kinda like how both children and adults we have at the core, there's like the inner child, right? I think talks about data and it's pretty, it's pretty interesting to see that we respond to things in similar ways, but.

At his score is similar, you know, and this kind of makes me think a lot about what it means to be, to become an adult to mature. Right? Like what, what is it that really changes from childhood to adulthood? That philosophically is different because, you know, and, and again, J Peterson had mentioning him a lot because I've been reading a lot about him recently.

And well, he talks a lot about there's, there's a lot of us that just become old infants, you know, like, uh, a 30 year old, a 40 year old, that, that still acts like a teenager. And, and that's very, that's very prevalent in, in culture, not just from the way we act, but also the way we, we portray ourselves, but that's the way we dress or the way that we, um, act, you [01:19:00] know, be being immature as an adult.

So I would love to hear from you, like, what do you, what, what is, what is maturity? What is that step from child to adult? What, what happens there philosophically? Hmm,

well, I don't know. I don't know. I think maybe it has to do with, I don't know if I'm fully mature. I, I think I am, but I, I don't know. Maybe I'm still in the process of maturing, obviously. I don't know if it's a, I don't know if it's a binary. I think it may be a continuum, you know, it's like, oh, you know, your it's a developmental process, you know, it's not like, oh, I'm now mature.

Um, right. I think it's, I think it, I think it's, it's probably, I think one of the markers is taking on responsibility. Like the more responsibility you take on the more mature you are. Yeah. Um, okay. Because that, that is kind of the process of growing up is taking on more responsibility, essentially. Like the [01:20:00] first kind of thing you do is like you have chores at your house, you know, and that's some responsibility and you're kind of maturing.

And may, maybe that happens around, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11. I don't know. Um, That's around when it happened for us, you know, we had had little chores we had to had to do and help out around the house. And then it's like, you, you grow up and, and then you get the, the chance to, um, maybe get your license, you know?

And then now you can leave the house and on your own. And that's a big deal cuz now you have more responsibility. You can't have, you know, my, my rule was like my parents rules, like you can have, um, can't let anybody drive your car. You can only have like one person in the car at a time, you know, this kind of a thing.

So there's rules. And so this is you're accumulating responsibility. And then later on, like you have, you know, you get to, uh, to move outta your house, you know? And now you have those, you know, you move out, maybe you're 20 years old, 25 years old, you move outta your house. and, um, and now you have to kind of go shopping, go grocery, shopping by [01:21:00] yourself.

You know, you have the responsibility to feed yourself, you have the responsibility to go to bed at a reasonable time, you know, wake up for your job and then you get a job, you know, and then, so you accumulate responsibility as you age. And I think that is very much, um, correlated with the, the cultivation of ma maturity.

Yeah. Ah, that's interesting. So you, you basically kind of, if I understand correctly, it's basically about the responsibilities that come upon you, you know, and some of them are some things you seek and some of them kind of come as you age, right? Um, yeah. Well, you know, because I, I struggled a lot with this recently.

I recently turned 26 and I feel like that's a bit of a, of a switch. Maybe not as much as turning 30, but I definitely felt some like wishes to change a bit. I had, I had heard till like super long, I decided to cut it. I, I did tons of things that, that kind of made me. Or I wanted to feel more adult, you know, like little things here and there.

Yeah. I'd love to know, just in your personal experience, like when did you start feeling like an adult?[01:22:00]

Well, I thought I was feeling like an adult when I got married. I mean, I thought at every stage, I, at every level of responsibility in every stage of my life, I felt like I, I felt like an adult, but not until I like, you know, I moved out with, I moved outta my house and then I found, uh, uh, my girl, my then girlfriend now, wife, Vanessa, we moved in together.

We got married, like at all these stages, I felt like I was like, oh man, I'm a grown up now. Um, but it was not until I had kid had a kid that I realized, oh, that was all just playing. Like I was just, I was just playing around. I was playing house. With my girlfriend and my wife, we were just hanging out. Um, but a kid and, and, and actually I mentioned this, uh, um, earlier in the conversation at the beginning, and I didn't really tie up this thread, but

my philosophical and [01:23:00] intellectual maturity, I would say, um, was, was really sparked by my kid. Also, not just my, my cause. I think there's different, different kinds of maturity, but not just my, um, practical maturity that we've been talking about, but my, um, intellectual maturity and, and, and thinking of thinking of the world and, and, and the, the different problems that we, we face as humanity and how to think about those problems and how to present those problems to a child.

Um, and, and all that stuff that, that was, as soon as my wife told me that she was pregnant. I immediately. That's what really sparked like the 2016 election really, you know, got me on the path, but then what really sparked my, um, my philosophical and intellectual inquiry into the nature of reality and the world and how to be and how to live.

And what's right. And what's good. [01:24:00] Um, was sparked by my kid. I was like, I have, I, it's not just for myself anymore. Like I'm not just doing it as an intellectual exercise. I wanna get clear on what I think is useful to tell some, to teach someone else I'm programming someone else. I'm like the AI programmers who are gonna create, you know, installing the software that is going to be, you know, um, uh, dictating the behavior of, of AI.

It's like, it's a lot of power. Yeah. Like those, some of the most powerful. People on the planet right now. Uh, and so it's a lot of powers apparent, cuz you're kind of installing that software. You're at least installing, at least in part you're, you're installing that, that software, the beginnings of that software, that's going to run and, and inform their behavior.

Um, and so I take that very seriously and um, yeah, that that's, that's what motivates a lot of my thinking and a lot of my, um, moral inquiry and, and, um, interest around different political issues and, and all that [01:25:00] stuff, so. Right, right. So, well, I I'm curious, like, did, did having your, your kid change your philosophy significantly, like your personal individual philosophy?

I don't, I don't know if it changed as much as it, it just, it just, it kind of helped me understand what I think more, um, because you know, I've, I've never been like super. Like set on one way of, of thinking. Um, I mean, I've gone through, through stages in different like areas of my life where I've been fairly narrow minded and ideological, you know, like I, when I was, uh, younger, like 18, uh, was probably like 20 years old, something that I, I would, I, I went through like a, uh, raw food, raw vegan, um, diet phase, you know, where I was like very restrictive.

And I just was like very dogmatic about what I [01:26:00] ate and kind of judgemental, not outwardly, but like inwardly about what other people were reading, you know, um, and, but, you know, so I, I can be a little bit intense and, and have a little bit, be a little bit obsessive. I. I tend, I can tend toward dogmatism if I, if I leave myself, you know, if left unchecked.

And I think that's partly why I'm I, you know, I developed, uh, kind of a framework and a lens through which through the world that, that integrates that, that at its heart is about balance and it integrates these different, uh, kind of opposing elements because I, I think I know it was a protective measure for me, I think subconsciously because I know myself and I know that like I have this tendency toward that, you know, to be unbalanced and then, and to, um, to kind of, um, get narrow minded.

And so, so anyway, I, I think that the, having the kid, it, it, it helped me just kind of uncover more of what I [01:27:00] thought and, and, um, it spurred me to, to study a broader range of perspectives because like, I think that's useful to, like, I, like I've said, you know, like I I'm, I'm really open to different sources of information, like, and so, and, and different perspectives.

Like those are really, really useful, not just intellectually, but, but practically, like, because reality's really complex and we need different perspectives and strategies to deal with it. And so, yeah, that's, that's having a kid made me realize that on a more visceral level and, and pursue things, um, much more seriously pursue my, those, those questions, the big questions of life, much more seriously.

Yeah. Um, that makes total of sense, you know, like, and you mentioned again, like this idea of like you finding your sources of truth from, from very different, uh, fields of not just study, but like perspectives from different lives and different ways to approach life. And, you [01:28:00] know, like you mentioned, woo, woo.

And some like that. And I wonder because. I personally struggle a lot. Like since I, since I got more in the journey of like philosophy and Stoy, and, and, you know, like kind of things that I consider way more rational, how, how do you deal with contradictions of things that just seem well, well, you were talking about the balance between opposing views, but like, do you find it hard or is it in your personality to just kind of embrace contradictory ideas and be okay with that?

Or do you always need to solve it kind of knowing where you lean more towards? How, how do you deal with that? Um, well it depends on the, on the thing I'm thinking about, I guess, but I, I think something that, that I do find, um, something that a trait, another trait that I'm proud of is my ability to let go of.

Like information, even if I believe that at one point, if, if I find that there's some [01:29:00] information that, that contradicts it, I I'm that it contradicts it or that is more useful or the more, it's more true. I'm, I'm perfectly, perfectly willing to, to let it go. Like, I I'm really not married to, um, beliefs. Um, there is, there's a saying, um, I, I forgot who said it, but, um, I heard it recently, there was like, uh, we, we, we question all of our, all of our beliefs except the ones we really believed, cuz those, we don't even think to question.

So, you know, Hey, I may be guilty of that. May that may be the case. Um, there may be deep seated beliefs that I don't question. And certainly there are, I mean, I can't question everything. We need a belief structure, but mm-hmm I definitely, I do have this, this trait. I don't know if it's, um, God-given or cultivated, but I.

I'm just interested in what's what's, what's real and, and what's true and what's useful. And, um, so, so [01:30:00] yeah. It's what question am I answering? Oh, you you're? I think you're asking me what, like, do I always have to do I always have to integrate? Yeah. How, how do you deal with your contradictions? Yeah, well, I, I guess, I guess the way I deal with it is first understanding that and knowing that reality is a set of contradictions, like even at the, um, at the, at the quantum level, uh, I, I, I am like not gonna go into quantum mechanic cuz I, I am not that smart for sure.

Um, but I, I I'm getting this from Ken Wilber. Ken Wilber is a really cool philosopher, um, really influential philosopher for me. Um, modern guy, you know, he's, he's getting old. So, um, I hope he six her on for a little bit longer, but he wrote a theory of everything, a brief history of everything, this and this other book, we wrote many books, but he he's another one of he is big fingers who makes sense of everything.

Makes sense of like large, well, you [01:31:00] know, the theory of everything, you know, that's the title of one of his books, so large amount of information trying to distill it, but he has a book called no boundary. And it, it is about kind of the, the, this duality that exists in, in these contradictions that exist and how reality is made up of a set of contradictions essentially.

Um, at the quantum level, you know, a particle is also is a, is a, is a, um, it's a particle, but also a wave at the same time. Yeah. It's here and also there, um, right. It's here, but not here, you know? And so there's these at the very base level of reality, physical reality, even there's these contradictions and the, the same thing happens when you scale that up to the social level and, and, um, And so anyway, that that's kind of something that I've realized and that I really have in integrated deep into my bones is the idea that, you know, reality is made up of a set of, of contradictions and that's [01:32:00] okay.

Um, like what is hot? Like you, you can't have hot without cold. You genuinely can't define ha without there being something that's cold. Um, but, but that, that, that doesn't mean that it's nonsensical or that you have to throw out one or the other, or just believe in cold or just believe in hot, like both exist.

It's a continuum. And so you, you know, it, it's actually one thing it's actually one thing and we're just using different words to, to describe it. Um, it's temperature, you know, or something like that. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And so this happens at, at all levels, um, So I just realized that, and then I realized, okay, well, um, I think that's, that kind of helped me make sense of a lot of things.

That's like, well, why do we have the, the, um, you know, conservatives and, and liberals, why do we have the left and right. And of the [01:33:00] political political spectrum and like, why can't we just all be open to change? Or why can't we all just be, um, you know, happy with, with the way things are. It's like, because, because the environment is always changing and we need different solutions for different problems.

Um, but even taking the political spectrum, those seem like different things, but it, it, again, it's just a continuum it's, it's describing kind of one thing and we just call it different things. It's it's, it's it's. You know, we, we, we, we make artificial boundaries for convenience sake, but you know, the left and right are both solving the same problems from different perspectives in, in a sense.

And so that's how I make sense of it. Um, it's more abstract than I, I suppose, is useful, but, um, it's just knowing that, uh, knowing that reality is a set of contradictions. And then, um, being wise enough, I [01:34:00] suppose, and having the intellectual humility is another way of saying it, having the intellectual humility to, um, choose the option, um, that I is most practical for the moment is most useful for the situation that one finds, you know, themselves.

Awesome man. Yeah. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. We're getting close to the time, but I do want to ask you, um, regarding just, well, your book first, uh, just gimme an update of what's the state of it so that I don't. Yeah, so that I misinterpreted words that, um, it's changed so much, man. I, I started writing several years ago and like I have the, the, the cons the whole, how I've conceived.

The book has changed dramatically. Um, from over the years, like, I, I wrote this one thing and then I'm like, uh, I don't really believe that anymore, or that wasn't incomplete. And I writing a whole other thing and I was like, uh that's okay. But it's, it's good. And so I'm in a place now [01:35:00] where I have so much written and so much drafts.

I, I, I think I've been writing a lot for myself to, to clarify my thoughts. Um, and I, and I. I've been trying to solve too big of a problem, um, which is like making sense of everything. And I think that I need to, so recently I, I realized that I need to narrow down the problem cause I'm not a Ken Wilber. Um, I'm not a, uh, a Jonathan H or Jordan Peterson.

Like I'm, I, I, I'm very interested in things and I'm very curious. Um, but I, I, I, I know myself and I need to focus myself a little bit more. Um, so I'm trying to narrow down my, my focus of, of the book and, and just solve a more precise problem. And I, I'm still kind of in the process of that, but I have so much written that once I, once I kind of decide on what that is, you know, it's just a matter of kind of rearranging the information and, and kind of, um, polishing [01:36:00] it up.

So. Yeah, man. That's crazy. Because ever since you started talking about your book, like years ago, I was like, yeah, this is my new favorite book and I haven't read it yet, but it just sounds incredible, man. No, I mean, I wanted to ask you, I mean, it, it definitely sounds like a huge challenge, but, uh, well, I know that you were touching very much on the topic of what, what are certain values or beliefs that unite different religions and philosophy.

So I, I just was curious if you come up with, I mean, I'm not saying just like one thing, but like, what are some of the overlaps that you've seen that you think are kind of meaningful to the individual and how to incorporate that into the lives that, that overlap across cultures? Yeah. Yes. Certainly believe certain ideas that overlap and are very useful.

Well, I mean, this comes down to kind of the, the work that Jonathan height has done, um, with, with moral foundations theory and, um, and, and kind of the framework that I've come up with to, to simplify it for myself. So I'll just speak from, from, well, I'll tell you, Jonathan height [01:37:00] says, I mean, Jonathan height has done a lot of research.

He's a social psychologist and he's, he's super, um, he's just, he's, he's awesome. I, like I said, he's one of my intellectual heroes, um, and he is a great thinker, but he, um, did a lot of research and, and took a lot of polls and studies. And it turns out that like, we all have about five or six different moral foundations across cultures that we use to make decisions.

And these are actually just like in. Embedded in our psyche they're, they're they're intuitive. So we come to a lot of our, like, uh, moral decision making, like what's what's right. What's wrong. What's good. What's bad. Intuitively like a lot of us are like almost all of us. We're not thinking rationally about, we're not thinking rationally about what we think is, is good.

And then like reasoning where instead we're intuiting, [01:38:00] what you know is good and what's right. And then we're rationalizing it after the fact. And so it's it, we kind of trick ourselves and it's hard to even, um, observe that we're doing this, but most of our moral decision making is, is done that way. And so, and that's okay.

But, um, there are patterns to that and those patterns are the moral foundations. And what he discovered was that there are. Um, there's, uh, one moral foundation is, um, care and care and harm. These are kind of like the dual, you know, the, the opposing, uh, values of care and harm, um, which is like when we see someone, uh, in, in, you know, suffering like we, you know, automatically want to help, you know, and, uh, we want to care for people who are, who are being, you know, oppressed and, and injured.

And this comes from our biological, you know, this comes from our being mammals and having to care for young. You know, we have this ingrained in us, you know, another one is like [01:39:00] loyalty and being like loyal to groups. Um, and obviously this has a, you know, roots in our tribal nature and all that. Um, so these are, you can think of these as values, too, loyalty, betrayal, you know, care and harm.

These are two different, two distinct kind of moral foundations or, or values that are, that exist across culture. And, um, another one would be, uh, you know, we got. Sanctity sanctity is this idea that some things are pure. Like there there's like a, like a, a higher dimension. You know, some things are pure, some things are, are, are not pure.

And of course this comes from our biological need to avoid contaminated food. And so we're omnivores. And so we need to, we've needed to avoid things in our, you know, putting things in our mouth that could be, that could make us sick, but we also need to explore new food. And so this is the tension between what's, what's known and what's unknown, you know, in a sense.

And so, you know, we, we got sanctity, we got loyalty, we got care. Um, [01:40:00] Liberty Liberty is another one, you know, freedom, freedom to, uh, to, to do what we please, and, and to not be oppressed, you know, And then there is fairness. Fairness is like a, is a big one. Um, we all have fairness in some sense. So these are, these are kind of the, the foundational elements of what makes up a, um, you know, our, our, our decision making and what drives our decision making in terms of what's good.

And what's bad. I think of it in terms of kind of three different, three different, uh, strata, you could think of it, three different levels of, um, abnormality. And then they, they kind of correspond subjective, uh, roughly to the, the objective, the subjective and the intersubjective levels of reality that I was mentioning earlier.

But inter subjectively, you know, you, you, the things that overlap across cultures are the need for autonomy, you know, like freedom and, but then. Opposed to that is a [01:41:00] need for, um, connection with other people, right? And so we wanna be free. We want this individual like sovereignty, you know, we wanna do what we want, but we also are connected to other people and our life is not exclusively our own.

Like we have responsibilities to others. We have, and, and Jonathan height would describe that as loyalty, but those are two big ones, autonomy and, um, connection. And then moving down the, the ladder a bit, you have, um, kind of, you know, in the stratosphere of, of, or in the strata of objective reality, You have, you know, this, what I mentioned about sanctity, you know, you have this need for novelty, but you also have this need for security.

You know, we, we want novelty. We, I touched on this earlier. We want new things. We want adventures. We want to solve problems, you know, but we want challenges. We crave the uncertain, but we also need security. We need predictability. We need habits. We need routines. We need structure. Otherwise we're lost. And so these are two other opposing elements, but they exist across cultures and they exist in, these are very deep [01:42:00] values.

They come from, they have biological origins in our evolutionary history. And then lastly, uh, at the, at the, at the subjective level you have, um, How do we deal with pain? You know, how, how do we deal with, with suffering and, and, and, and that's, you know, I think the two values there that that exist are, are something like, uh, this is a little more tricky and I'm still kind of working it out, but it's something like pleasure or enjoyment, you know?

Cause we, we need, we need that, that fulfillment, we need that pleasure. We need the happines we know we need that, that hit the reward, you know? Um, but we also, but, and that's contrasted with meaning that's contrasted with, you know, this, this need for something deeper, for something spiritual, for something transcendent, you know, um, it's, it's selflessness as, uh, selflessness versus, um, uh, you know, self ishness in a sense.

Yeah. And not selfishness in a, in a derogatory term, but it's, you know, focusing on the self, focusing on, on beyond the self, you know, and the that's it, then I think that's the landscape. Um, [01:43:00] I think those are the things that are common among, um, among everyone. These are, you know, these are the values that are, I would say non.

They're not negotiable. Like we all have them. It's just a matter of degree, you know? It's not like you don't ever want security. You just have, maybe you, maybe you, you know, you're temperamentally oriented toward novelty a little bit more, you know, but you still need a house. You still need, you still crave predictability.

Like, if I were to, like, if we were in person right now and I would just like stand up and like push you, you'd be like, what the hell? Like, why are you doing that? Cause I'm breaking a social norm that I'm very unpredictable. And so we don't want that. Nobody wants that. And so anyway, um, these are all, I, I, this is kind of my framework.

This is how I can conceptualize it. And this is kind of what I was trying to articulate in my book. It, but it's, it's very, it gets very, very dense and it gets very complicated, very quickly. That's the, that's the gist of it. I, I, from these six kind of value structures, these [01:44:00] deep, deep, big value with a, with a capital vs.

Yeah. Um, all of our, all of our behavior flows, all of our decisions, um, are made, um, all of our intuitions come to us through these, you know, this is just kind of the, the, what I would consider as the rock bottom. So yeah, that's that, that's what I would say. Sorry about that. That was my, that was my timer.

Don't worry, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. We'll rip it up, but no, man, thank you so much. I mean, that's, that's really cool. And I really hope the book keeps going well, like I said, that's is my favorite book that I haven't read yet. So we're looking forward to all that high praise. Thank you, man. Thank you. yeah, man. But no, thank you for making the time.

It's been awesome to hear from you and yeah. Well, for, for my audience, anyone that, that wants to learn more about what you do, you know, share, share some of work to find you and what you're currently doing right now. Yeah, you can find me at thinker, prosper dot, um, dot com. That's my website think grow prosper.com.

Also I'm on Instagram at think, grow prosper. [01:45:00] Um, I've evolved a lot over the, the years from posting inspirational kind of quotes, um, related to success and, and money and, and also just mindset to more philosophical things and, and, and, and, and then more practical things now. So yeah, it's, it's kind of, um, a little bit all over the place, but, um, yeah, that's where you can find me.

And, and, uh, I have a podcast think the think row podcast, I've been on a bit of a hiatus lately, but I'll probably get back into, to the, uh, swing of things here pretty soon. So awesome. And yeah. Well, thanks for making the time. It's been a pleasure, dude. Thank you so much. It was. Cool. Awesome, man. We'll cut it there.

Um, no, it's been great. Thank you so much, man. I took tons of notes. You made out the truth. It's incredible. nice, dude. Nice. Yeah. I had a great conversation. I thought that was very fun, dude. Same, same. Yeah. And you know, I'll, I'll let you know when I post this and you can of course use the audio. I'll send it to you, you know, all wrapped up nicely edited and stuff.

Cool. Sweet dude. Awesome. Thank you. You so much, man. I'm I'm glad we got, we gotta talk [01:46:00] again at some point soon and just kind of like catch up. Cause I didn't get anything from, you know, I was blabbing away, so I didn't get all, all your stuff, but I appreciate it dude. And, and uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Of course, man. Yeah. It's been a pleasure and yeah, definitely looking forward to talk some other times. So yeah, it's a shame. We had a bit of time pressure, but don't worry too much. Like yeah. Good luck with that. What, what, what did you say it was. Oh, I, I have a coaching, uh, call right now. I, I I've. Um, yes.

Yeah. Somebody's, uh, I'm, I'm offering like, uh, some coaching packages over the next, um, few months and I sent an email about it. And so I'm doing some exploratory calls to see if we're a good fit. And so several people booked, I just didn't realize that they were gonna book so close to this, um, to this time.

Yeah, don't worry. Don't worry. Sorry about that. But yeah, that man that's super good. Is it like philosophical coaching or, or is it something else? Yeah, yeah, it was gonna depend on the person, you know, it's gonna depend on, um, on what the person needs. Um, but basically getting clarity and, um, and [01:47:00] direction on, you know, people who are stuck, feel a little bit stuck in their goals or overcoming a particular problem.

Getting clarity on that and kind of setting up a plan. And accountability to, to kind of just surmount that and to, to stay on it. Um, because we all really know what we need to do. It's just a matter of doing it and having that accountability, but also having someone to clarify. Cause I know when I talk to people like I'm, I'm often like in my own way, I'm overthinking it, but when someone says something it's like, oh shit, you're right.

Like that, that is actually the case. And so having that objective voice in, in our head is really helpful thought. And so, yeah. Yeah. I just, um, people seem, seem, seem to want that. And so yeah, if you know anybody, man, um, you know, feel free to, to send them away. Is it, is it on your website or something just to refer to people?

I just informally, I just informally, um, sent it on my email. Um, I'll probably probably put a, put a link on my, uh, on my website, but, um, but yeah, you could just, you could just email, you could just have 'em email me if, if, if they're interested. So that's awesome, man.